I'm going to piece apart the comment in the first post because it covered alot of area and I think it will be easier to start a new post than reply to all of it in a comment.
Here's how I'm breaking it down (and I'm not commenting on everything at this time).
144,000 go to heaven - not going to argue the point although I have a tendency to think that this is more of a symbolic number than an actual number. Divisible by the twelve tribes and thousands is a representative of what the people of the time thought was a big number. The Bible is God's Word, but it was interpretted by men. I'm sure that men at the time could not fathom several million, let alone billion. I'm not necessarily arguing the point because believing the 144,000 or not is a difference between reading Revelation in an literal sense or a symbolic sense. I think it's a little bit of both - just can't get off the fence, can I?
Hell. Okay, I'm going back to 20:15 "Anyone whose name ws not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire." Also, 21:8 "But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Spirits - we can discuss who the Bible tells us the spirits are, but I know one of the spirits was my grandfather. I don't know if that is something the Bible tells us, but it is something that makes it confusing to determine what exactly is going on after death.
Daniel. I need to read Daniel, I am leaving Daniel alone right now. I might skip ahead in the Old Testament, but if I do that I'm skipping Psalms and Proverbs again. :) Might have to do it anyway, just make sure I go back.
15 comments:
Ok Mary, I mentioned to you that I am interested in figuring this out myself. However, I still need that Bible for dummies because either I am still tired from the trip or I just don't get it! Jesus "took over" in 1914? Am I reading this correctly? Where was he prior to that? This is all just a little fuzzy for me and I really do want to "get it" :)
So what is basically being said is there is no "heaven or hell"?
We'll get back to Daniel in a later post after I've had some research time (1914 point).
I'm not sure where you are getting the no "heaven or hell" thing, we must really be confusing you. Cynthia (loveabulls) is saying that there is a Heaven that the 144,000 go to and that there is not a Hell. I am questioning the number in heaven and what the Bible says about hell or the "pool of fire".
By the way, I am looking up the quotes. I'm not that good. Although Cynthia may be. :)
New American Bible? Is that the one you told me to pick up? I'm seriously confused. :) Don't you love that jumped in this???? :)
mary...this is really hard to understand...because, like you said, this is the word of God...but it's the word of God, interpreted by men...thousands of years ago...so with a much larger population on earth, wouldn't it be different now, as far as the numbers go?
BoUnCeS!! LibbY!
Jesus took over in 1914?? I don't recall that in my WW I history...and I watch the History channel...
John's writing style (which matches writings of the time) was largely symbolic...a bit over-the-top symbolic for my tastes. Beware the danger of literally interpreting symbolic prose.
I'll post something more useful later.
I reviewed some source material so as to not appear to be talking out of my you-know-what.
Revelation, as I mentioned, was a product of a time of early growth and confusion, but also of a long Jewish tradition of apocalyptic literature. The Old Testament books of Ezekiel and Zechariah contain long apocalyptic segments. The most famous Old Testament apocalypse, the Book of Daniel, was written circa 165 b.c..
The apocalyptic genre became more popular after 70 a.d., when the apocryphal apocalypses, 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra, were written in response to the destruction of the Jewish temple in Jerusalem by Roman armies. There is enough apocalyptic literature that it can be classified as a genre of its own, with its own particular characteristics.
Some of these common features are revelations made to a human emissary through a supernatural agency, heavy symbolism, numerology with obscure significance, extravagant imagery, and concern about a cataclysmic day of judgment or the end of the world. Apocalyptic literature tends to take a deterministic view of history—that is, apocalypses are generally driven by the belief that history inexorably follows a set path ordained by God. All of these characteristics of the apocalyptic genre are present in Revelation.
So - why do we fixate on Revelation when there is an entire genre of writings inh this style from roughly the same period? Hmmmm....
So - why do we fixate on Revelation when there is an entire genre of writings inh this style from roughly the same period? Hmmmm....
Because it's my Blog? Just kidding. I was planning on moving on to Daniel, but needed to reread it before I felt I'd be ready.
You mention 2 Baruch and 4 Ezra. I'm assuming, and please correct me if I am wrong, that these are additional books than those in the Bible (I'm applying the 1 Kings, 2 Kings format). If that is the case, the reason they are probably overlooked is that no one saw fit to put them in the Bible for one reason or another. That's not to say that they might not have valuable information, but if you are concentrating on studying The Bible, you may not wander there. One may not even know that they existed.
I will take it under advisement that I should be considering Ezekial and Zechariah posts in the future.
You may have to play amongst yourselves while I read....
Well, I didn't mean "we fixate" as in the blog group - it was more directed towards the general public....
------------------------
...but if you are concentrating on studying The Bible, you may not wander there. One may not even know that they existed.
Hmmm...I'll scowl and say nothing. :)
Or rather ;-<
Read Revelation 7:9 (concentrating on) great multitude that no one could count.....my personal choice, Life Application Study Bible. In front of the throne and the Lamb.....post Christ...He made it as simple as it can get. 144,000 Pre Christ..multitude after Christ. We as POH (plain ol humans) make it more difficult than is necessary. (EG)
Thanks Anon, I reread 7:9 and that did help. I think I'm going to go back and reread the whole thing without the footnotes and see if I get even more out of it.
Please keep an eye out for more posts, your comments are welcome.
Mary...John 3:16 says it all.....if you believe this then you have no reason to worry about overthinking Revelation....saved by Grace through faith...only need a mustard seed of faith....and this passage is the only part of the whole bible....that one needs to believe. It is a heart thing not a head knowledge....like the wind....you have to believe it is there....cause sometimes....unless there is something blowing in it....you can't always see it.Teehee....female logic.
so if you have faith and believe Jesus is the Christ the Son of the Living GOD and you are paralyzed, or on an iron lung...etc. and can not do physical works...then your faith is not real and you will go to hell when you die? The "works" has nothing to do with the Salvation......you can do all the "works" you want and have no belief....Jesus did the work for us...because we are tooooooo weak in our sinful nature....
Grrr... I just tried to post a comment and it didn't take. My own blog is against me. Let me see if I can retrace my steps.
I'm going to play both sides of the fence here. I'm going to do a little more research, but I wanted to comment anyway.
James does say that "Faith without works is dead". Nothing to get upset about, it is right there in the Bible. However, this was not a quote from Jesus, this was James talking. A man.
Could you do works while your paralyzed? Sure you could if you were moved to, you could spread the word to others.
I do have one question though. What constitues a "work"?
Um, that's supposed to be constitutes. I'm tired.
Post a Comment